I've been reading the blog of John Smulo for a wee while now. If you've not checked it out yet then you should. One of the things John reguarly has on this blog which I've enjoyed and learned from are interviews with all sorts of interesting people.
So inspired by this I'm planning to do some interviews and thought that it would be appropriate if John kicked things off.
Brodie - John can you tell us a little about yourself and your family?
John – I’ve been married to Alex for twelve years. She’s from Australia, and we met while involved with Youth With A Mission (Honolulu). We have four boys between 7-11—there’s twins in the middle. We’ve lived in both Sydney, where Alex is from; and California, where I’m from. It’s been a very positive experience getting to live in two quite different cultures.
Brodie - Tell us about how you came to be a Christ follower and if you grew up in a Christian family?
John – I grew up in a Jewish family, though my parents were fairly nominal. I have some family members that are involved in their synagogue, but growing up they didn’t share much with me about Judaism. Once I become a Jesus-follower most family members struggled with my decision and began sharing a lot more with me. Ironically it was only after I became a Christian that I had an interest in learning more about my Jewish background—which as it happens has a lot to do with Christianity.
My story of becoming a Christ-follower will probably sound a bit odd. Basically I grew up having no interest in spiritual things at all. Then one day I was driving down the highway in northern California—I can remember it like it was yesterday, though it was 13 years ago—and I had an overwhelming feeling that I was supposed to go to a particular church that my then girlfriends parents went to. I went, and for the first time had an overwhelming sense that there was something spiritual going on that I needed to explore more. Several months later I gave my life to the Person who always owned it.
Brodie - How would you describe your current job?
John – I can’t remember the last time I only had one job or thing I was involved in. My main "jobs" have been pastor and faculty member at a Bible College for a number of years. Currently I’m teaching at Capital Bible College and talking to a few churches who are looking for a pastor. I’m normally working on some type of writing project in the midst of it all.
Brodie - You’ve had some stuff published on mission to those involved in "New Religious Movements" as part of the Lausanne group who thinks and talks about this stuff. Can you tell us what is meant by NRM and how you came to be involved in this kind of thing?
John – ‘New Religious Movements’ are generally thought to be newer, or alternative, forms of spirituality other than the traditional religions that people in a given culture have been a part of. As the name implies, they are also newer kids on the block historically. Since religions such as Christianity, Judaism, etc. have been around for thousands of years, groups such as Latter-day Saints and Jehovah’s Witnesses tend to get lumped in the "new religion" category even though they’ve been around for quite awhile. New Religious Movements are often marginalized by the wider culture, and especially those who are part of the traditional religions. Christians would do well to remember that in the early centuries of the church we were the new religious movement, and as a result were marginalized and often persecuted.
I had an interest in evangelism and apologetic approaches to other religions virtually from the time I became a Jesus-follower. Because my family was Jewish and they had so many questions I didn’t know how to answer, I discovered apologetics. And because I felt this compulsion to share the Good News that had transformed my life, I discovered evangelism.
When I was in my second year at Morling College I took a class called Alternative Religious Movements. One of the assignments was to research and develop a response to an alternative religious movement. The class covered the new religious movements that Christians tend to focus on, such as Mormonism, and New Spirituality (aka New Age). But at the time I kept noticing how many television shows, movies, and books were in the popular media covering Wicca. So I asked if I could do my essay on Wicca, which wasn’t covered in the class.
I came to be known as the guy in Sydney who knew about witchcraft, and started having a number of churches invite me to teach on the topic. One of the questions I was regularly asked is if Wicca and Satanism were the same thing. I knew they weren’t, but I didn’t know all of the details. So when I did an honour’s thesis I decided to do it on an Incarnational apologetic to Satanism.
Brodie - How would you describe your mission to those involved in Satanism or neo-paganism?
John – For me this involves two main areas. The first is primary source research. So this involves reading material written by adherents of new religious movements, interacting with them online, interviewing people in person, and writing.
The second main area that this involves is developing friendships with Satanists and Neo-Pagans. This has created a lot of problems for some Christians over the years, with them questioning why I’d have any associations with such [insert any number of derogatory terms here] people. But I’ve tried to let that be their problem and not mine whenever possible. Sadly, I haven’t always been successful in this.
I’ve been fortunate that my research has given me lots of opportunities to meet lots of people from these backgrounds. I’m certainly not ashamed to say that many of them have become friends.
Brodie - I’ve come across Christians that tend to lump Satanists, new agers, pagans, masons, wicca etc all together. I know from stuff your written that this is erroneous, could you explain why we should not lump all these different groups together and what harm we could do if we do?
John – I’m glad you raised this. The main reason why we shouldn’t lump all of these groups together is simple, they’re all different. There was a small scandal here in America when Rosie O’Donnell essentially compared Christians with Muslim terrorists. Christians don’t like it when others falsely compare them to others. Pagans and others are no different.
Lumping all of them together causes harm for a number of reasons. For starters, if we demonstrate to others that we don’t understand what they believe—even while passionately claiming we do—then why should they take us seriously when we talk about matters of life and eternity? What’s more, as people who claim to follow the One who is called himself the "Truth", we represent him poorly if we are involved in lying.
Brodie - I’ve met a lot of Christians who are "afraid" of people who would say they were a Witch, or a Druid or a Satanist, and would think that they are demon possessed. What’s your views on those involved in NRM and the demonic?
John – I believe that the demonic exists, and that occasionally this involves possession. So it’s certainly possible that one of the above could be possessed. But so could an atheist, Mormon, or an adherent of any other group. If anything we are satanically deceived if we place an unbalanced emphasis on the demonic and particular groups.
Brodie - You’ve started a web site called "Missional Apologetics". Can you explain why you felt the need to put "Missional" before apologetics, and how the approach you’d argue for here might differ from say the Josh McDowell kind of stuff many of us have grown up with?
John – Apologetics was never meant to be an end in itself. Apologetics is a tool for evangelism and mission. For far too long apologetics has merely been about rational arguments in regard to who’s right (us) and who’s wrong (everyone else). This type of approach tends to make (them) defensive and (us) smugly self-confident. Enough is enough of this approach.
I’ve added "missional" before apologetics to signify the heart of what apologetics is about—a tool for mission. I’ve also used this term to signify that this newer paradigm of apologetics relies heavily on insights from the field of missiology, such as cross-cultural communication, contextualization, and Incarnational ministry. The Missional Apologetic Manifesto explains more of what this involves.
Brodie - In your experience what are some of the barriers for those who've been involved in NRM’s and become Jesus followers then integrating into a Church?
John – There’s different difficulties for people coming from different groups. For example, if a person was a Pagan and became a Jesus-follower, they’d probably either be asked to speak to everyone about their experiences and be treated like a circus sideshow, or they’d be treated with suspicion. Also, church as normally expressed will likely be far less participatory than they’re used to, in many churches they’ll find that if they’re female they’re no longer able to equally participate in every area of church life, and they’ll quite possibly find Christians doing far less when it comes to ethical issues such as caring for the environment. But if a person was a Satanist who converting to Christianity and tried to integrate into a church, they’d have some different struggles.
Brodie - Why do you think we’ve seen in the west an explosion of interest in "alternative spirituality's" and at the same time a decline in those who would regularly attend church and call themselves Christians?
John – Sociologists and others have been exploring this question, and I don’t know if there’s a definitive answer. But I suspect a lot of it has to do with the everyday perceptions of people particularly in the West who think that Christianity doesn’t provide substance to the heartfelt spiritual longings they have. But they often have a suspicion that new religious movements do. Another significant factor is that the West has become increasingly pluralistic and diverse over time, and there are a lot more spiritual options for Western consumers to buy into.
Brodie - It can be hard to keep on keeping on in mission. What sustains you, what keeps you going?
John – When it comes to interacting with people in new religious movements, I really enjoy it. I have received much from the relationships that have been built both with adherents of NRM’s, as well as friends who are working in the same field.
I also have a strong sense that we’re doing a terrible job responding appropriately to NRM’s—so much written by Christians on the topic is sensational and inaccurate, and no doubt causes more harm than good. In addition, there’s a million books written on Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons by Christians. I’m passionate about being part of a relatively small group of Christians globally working in this area, and hope that many more join us! These are the main factors that sustain me in mission.
Brodie - Tell us three things we could be praying for you and your family in the work that you are doing.
John – First, that God would bless the relationships we make with adherents of NRM’s. Second, that God would help us to accurately represent those that we’re writing about. And third, that God would help us to develop missional apologetic approaches to NRM’s that will be used by others in a manner that works with what God is already doing in people’s lives, rather than against it.
Brodie - John thanks for taking the time to answer these questions and for well being who you are and doing what you do.
John – Brodie, I appreciate what you do here, and have enjoyed the opportunity to talk with you.
Very interesting. Much to mull over.
Thanks to both you Brodie, and John.
Posted by: Toni | Friday, January 26, 2007 at 11:53 PM
Again, thanks to both you Brodie, and John for this really helpful interview.
Like John I share a deep concern that when we talk about the 'other' we do so in a way which is accurate, loving and inclusive and not ignorant, angry and over-against. I will pray that "that God would help us to develop missional apologetic approaches to NRM’s that will be used by others in a manner that works with what God is already doing in people’s lives, rather than against it."
Posted by: Graeme Clark | Saturday, January 27, 2007 at 12:17 AM
Toni and Graeme,
Thank you both for your encouraging feedback. I'm glad to see that we share the same concern.
Brodie,
Thanks again for the opportunity to do the interview.
Posted by: John Smulo | Saturday, January 27, 2007 at 02:22 AM
I've put a link to this in the New Religious Movements discussion forum. Hope you don't mind.
Posted by: Steve Hayes | Saturday, January 27, 2007 at 07:03 AM
It's kind of funny, but whilst John's time at theological college overlapped with mine, we didn't know each other back then (I've always been a somewhat low-profile character anyway). It's really been through the blogosphere and email that we've come to find out about each other's stories.
Thanks for the interview!
Posted by: fernando | Saturday, January 27, 2007 at 04:04 PM
Hey Fernando,
Better late than never :-)
Posted by: John Smulo | Saturday, January 27, 2007 at 07:25 PM
Brodie - thanks for this insightful interview. John - thanks for your openness.
Posted by: Phil | Saturday, January 27, 2007 at 11:33 PM
Great interview. Interesting, while many in Christian circles see these movements as a risk, I really am hopeful. It says to me that they are looking for something, more than they've experienced. They are looking for something supernatural... I believe whether they know it or not, they are looking for God. If the church will recover both it's full redemptive and supernatural heritage, many of these people would see the real Jesus and fall in love with him.
Posted by: John Lunt | Sunday, January 28, 2007 at 12:59 PM
Toni - Thanks for your comments. I glad that it's given you some stuff to mull over.
Posted by: Brodie | Sunday, January 28, 2007 at 11:03 PM
Graeme - glad you found the interview helpful - hey we look forward to when you join us in blogging as I'm sure many of you could benifit from your thoughts.
Posted by: Brodie | Sunday, January 28, 2007 at 11:04 PM
Steve - I don't mind the link at all and trust that those who use it will be encouraged by John and learn from him.
Posted by: Brodie | Sunday, January 28, 2007 at 11:06 PM
Fernando - hey that's wierd to think of you and John being at college together but not connecting back then. I've really appreciated both your blogs and the fact that you reguarly comment here.
Posted by: Brodie | Sunday, January 28, 2007 at 11:07 PM
Phil - cheers, but the thanks really goes to John for being up for doing this.
Posted by: Brodie | Sunday, January 28, 2007 at 11:08 PM
John - I think there's certainly something in what you say, that many people are on a spiritual quest but would never think that Christianity / the church has anything to offer. I too am optomistic that as we learn how to engage with people in NRM's so they will find peace in Jesus.
Posted by: Brodie | Sunday, January 28, 2007 at 11:11 PM
John - once again thanks for taking part in this interview and for sharing with us.
Posted by: Brodie | Sunday, January 28, 2007 at 11:12 PM
I'd be keen to see what John's take on that is; for me it says something about the college we studying at.
Posted by: fernando | Monday, January 29, 2007 at 12:04 AM
Thanks to everyone for your encouraging comments!
Posted by: John Smulo | Monday, January 29, 2007 at 06:27 PM
Fernando,
Maybe it had something to do with the college. But I think it may have especially had to do with us not taking any classes together that I could remember. I think you were two years a head of me.
I knew who you were--the really smart guy who I'm sure got better marks than me! I wish we would have had the opportunity to have got to know each other more in person.
Posted by: John Smulo | Monday, January 29, 2007 at 06:31 PM
John, you pretty much summed it up. At college I only ever got to know people in silos and even then, the year gap thing was pronounced. I didn't get to know a lot of people in my year because since I started part time, I did all my theology and half my bible subjects with the years ahead of me.
But one of the things I always thought was broken, compared to other small theological colleges, was mealtimes. I ate a couple of times in the college dining hall, but it was rough. At lunchtimes, I would walk to Macquarie Centre, or take a drive to Eastwood/Chatswood/Balmain, wherever, to lunch.
Posted by: fernando | Monday, January 29, 2007 at 11:46 PM
Thanks for writing this.
Posted by: Mana | Wednesday, October 22, 2008 at 03:01 PM