View From The Basement

Atonement Pub Theology

Last night a bunch of us gathered (at the Tramway pictured) for a pub theo session to discuss the atonement, or more specifically Fr Richard Rohr's comments on the atonement.

Rohr states, "As many of you know, I am a strong proponent of the Franciscan understanding of the redemption, based on the teaching of Blessed John Duns Scotus in the 13th century. He did not believe in any "substitutionary atonement theory" of the cross: Jesus did not have to die to make God love us, he was paying no debt, he was changing no Divine mind. Jesus was only given to change our mind about the nature of God! (Imagine what we are saying about the Father, if he needed blood from his son to decide to love us! It is an incoherent world with no organic union between Creator and creature. No wonder so few Christians have gone on the mystical path of love, since God is basically untrustworthy and more than a little dangerous.)

For Duns Scotus, Jesus was the "image of the invisible God" who revealed to us a God's eternal suffering love for humanity, in an iconic form that we could not forget. He was not "necessary," but a pure gift. The suffering was simply to open our hearts, not to open God's - which was always open". You can read this is context here.

Now some of you may be thinking, "what's the world coming to that a bunch of people from a Baptist church are discussing a Franciscan understanding of the atonement". Well, what can I say apart from "perhaps we are in good company". This session had been occasioned by the fact that many of us have benefited from some of Rohr's teaching, so when he visited Glasgow this summer a number of people I know went to hear him. At one of his talks he made a throw-a-way comment about the atonement which got people thinking, talking and questioning.

It is always hard in these kinds of settings to include everyone and to not let things descend into a question and answers session directed at one person or head off on an unfruitful detour. I think we managed to include everyone and that there was some genuine discussions and sharing of ideas and understandings.

In getting the group started in thinking about this stated that perhaps the most important question with regards to all this is "what is at stake, does it matter how we understand the atonement?" So how would you answer that question.....please leave your answer in the comments section.

Pete and TSK

To understand the cartoon fully read this. In many respects the two people in the photo, Andrew Jones and Pete Rollins exemplify what I'll take away from the Soliton weekend the most. Here are two guys who I would guess (and it is my opinion I'm expressing here) that differ, and not just in body shape. I would guess that they differ on lots of theology, in the way to express what it means to be a follower of the Christ, in what church is and how to do it....yet there is a mutual respect and warmth between them.

Perhaps if there was one thing that marked out the weekend, particularly the Portrush sessions was that a group of different people, from lots of different contexts can together and for the sake of mission and in a desire to follow Jesus, created a safe environment where you could say what you were thinking without fear of being judged in the knowledge that you were loved.

[so Jesus said to them]..by this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another - John 13:35

PURE

I got an email today from a UCCF fieldworker to say that the Pure course at Edinburgh University has been banned. I've used the Pure material with our older youth cell and think that it's good stuff to help young people think through a Christain position on relationships and sex.

The CU at Edinburgh have from the inforamtion I have handled things well, but the decision to ban the course was taken without fully consulting them.

I've written on behalf of our team to ask the principle and vice chancellor to allow the Pure Course to proceed. A copy of the letter is below;

Baptists, coffee & Emerging Church Part 2

Stuart Blythe has started to blog and as the person who organised "Baptists, coffee and Emerging Church" (my title not his) he's posted his thoughts on the evening. If you want to follow the dialogue then have a look at what Stuart has written.

Baptists, coffee & Emerging Church

Last night a went to a meeting of Baptist Leaders in Scotland to discuss Eddie Gibbs and Ryan Bolger's book Emerging Churches.

Before everyone had gathered a guy who was not part of our group but obviously knew Stuart Blythe came over to say that he'd made his mind up on the Emerging Church and had preached against it. I'm glad to say that this was not the attitude of those who gathered to discuss the book. There were questions for sure, but most resonated with much of the book. The "agenda" was simply the discussion, the journeying together and seeing where we ended up.

One key question was, "what does this mean in the Scottish context?" This is a difficult question to answer as there is not one Scottish context but many. Indeed those gathered represented many different contexts, be that the Suburbs of Glasgow, market town Scotland, Post Industrial Motherwell or institutional Scotland. I don't think we came close to answering this question, and if we were to meet again perhaps this is the question around which we should gather?

One of the contributors who (i think) liked the book a lot commented, "I've a small congregation with a group of dear people who love Jesus and are growing in their faith. So what do I do, try and transition them (most of whom would be 50+) to something like the book talks about, or do I start something different?" This is where the rubber hits the road, and I feel it is the position many who are in full time ministry but attracted to the Emerging Church may find themselves. There may be a few who have the financial freedom and the conviction that this is what God want so them, to do something new. The reality for most "professional Christians" is that we've become dependent upon the institution for our livelihoods so our options for doing something new are limited. This does not however mean that these guys don't have a role to play in the Emerging Church in Scotland. There will be a need for mentors, accountability figures, friends and advocates for those who dare to plant in our complex culture.

The concept of success was discussed. I think that most warmed to a move away from numbers to success measured by commitment, or depth / length of relationship. That said there was a recognition that we were all part of structures which measured success by numbers. This could lead to, IMHO, the undesirable position of guys doing stuff that is relational, that is measured by criteria other than numbers, but that this becomes some sort of sub-ministry an extra circular activity and thus instead of breaking down dualisms we establish a new one.

Jim perceptively noted that the "Emerging church movement" (there was some discussion as to wither it is a movement) is unprecedented in church history as this is the first "significant" (his word not mine) church movement since the web. I highlighted that Jim thought emerging churches were significant as I think that its significant that someone in his position has this view. FYI it's a view I would agree with. Indeed Jim was exited by much of the book, but had many questions. In particular he had questions regarding the following statement from the book;

"The church universal is an emerging church, for as the body of Christ here on earth, it awaits with eager anticipation the return of its Lord. As such, it is a church always in the process of becoming. It has never arrived in any final way. It is a pilgrim church, living the present reality of the reign of God in its provisional form until its consummation. It "emerges" as it engages the complex mosaic of cultures represented by the peoples of the earth. In so doing, it is morphed in those cultures and exerts a redemptive influence on them" (p43)

If I understand Jim correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), his primary concern here is who is doing this morphing? Is it culture or the Spirit of God. The observant among you will note that I've just set up a dualism. It's a wrong dualism IMHO, and I've blogged elsewhere in comments on why I think Niebuhr's Christ above culture, Christ in Culture etc model is unhelpful and perhaps dangerous. This is not to say that Jim's question is wrong, indeed others suggested that some of what gets called Emerging Church is just a bunch of angry young men venting their ecclesiological testosterone.

For me the answer to Jim's question lies somewhere in the paradox, the tension between the Church as a pilgrim church and an indigenous church.

Apologies for this post being a bit of a ramble and not well structured. However I trust that it may be that starting point for further reflection / conversation and gives a flavor of what happens when you get some Baptists, some coffee and the Emerging Church (albeit in book form) together.

Peace.

A Lecture in Honor of Dr. Stanley J Grenz

Darrell Cosden has been invited by Mars Hill Graduate School to give the Living Theology lecture in Honor of Dr. Stanley J. Grenz. I read about this on Dwight's blog.

I've asked, and Darrell has agreed, if he would do his lecture as a pub theology session here in sunny Glasgow before he flys off to Seattle. Darrell graciously agreed so we meet tomorrow. The title of his paper is "The Named Human and the Question of 'Being' Christlike: Revisioning Evangelical Spirituality through renewing the Communicatio Idiomatum". Rather than stand up and deliver this paper those coming should have read it before hand and have their questions, observations and comments ready.

I'll not say anymore about this until after the 3rd of March so as not to soil anything for those in Seattle.

Pub Theology

So pub theology yesterday was good. Rory joined us for the first time, but had to leave early. This was a pity for he brought warmth and wisdom to our conversation. Mike also had to leave early so we missed his penetrating questions. We struggled on nevertheless. Darrell not only brought his considerable theological thinking to bear on the discussion but even got to share of his adventure of going to the world premier of the Narnia film and the star studded party afterwards. Wes fresh from a trip State-side tried as usual to keep us focused, a hard task if ever there was one. He’d met up with his old friend Brian McLaren and talked about similar stuff with him as we discussed so it was good to get this perspective too. Stuart was gracious in our questioning of his paper that we were reviewing. Vincent (pictured dreaming of snow)brought the French perspective although I suspect his mind was on and the snow in the

Alps

which he will enjoy over the holiday’s with his wife.

As we talked I thought of Maggi's post about God coming to us and it being messy. Having been at all three of my son’s births I know, albeit from a male perspective, the messiness of childbirth. So as God came to us in our discussion and our theology was messy and inconclusive. This was not an academic exercise in pontificating on theological niceties but a journeying together as we sought to understand the practical and pastoral implications of our thoughts. In this there was a real sense of togetherness – not that we agreed with each other, but that there was a freedom and energy in the ‘messiness’ as each participant was able to share in an environment of mutual respect and without fear of rejection. That in this environment of love there was no fear in speaking out raw thoughts, of things we were still processing and ‘elsewhere would be crucified for’. Perhaps this kind of God talk happens in a pub near you all the time? But I have the feeling that for

Glasgow

this is probably a rarity.

Pub Theology

I took at trip to the West End of Glasgow yesterday to meet up with Wes White and chat about doing church in a postmodern context. Stuart Weir who I knew from my time at ICC was also there. It was good to catch up with these guys and share our thoughts and experiences of what we've been involved with.

Some of the other folk from Mosaic joined us for their regular Pub Theology gathering. It was pub theology in two senses, 1. it was in a pub, 2. it was in a public place. They are working through Alann Man's book Atonement for a 'sinless' society. While I've not read Alan's book (yet) it was easy enough to follow along and add my thoughts.

All in all it was a good afternoon and I trust and pray that Wes and the others at Mosaic will know God blessing all they are involved with.