View From The Basement

Harry Potter

I've appreciated getting to know John Smulo via his blog and the odd email. For those of you who read this blog who don't know John then you really should pay him a visit. John is very active int he area of missional apologetics especially amoung people who would describe themselves as satanists, witches, pagans etc. He also teaches and has chapters and articles published on New Religious Movements. Given all this I thought it would be good to ask John some questions about the whole Harry Potter thing, especially as the last of the books is released for sale tonight. So here's my interview with John regarding Harry Potter.

ME – John thanks for agreeing to give us some of your thoughts about the Harry Potter books and films.

John – No problem. I’m glad to participate.

ME – I guess the first question is an obvious one...have you read any of the books or seen any of the films?

John – I’ve seen all of the movies, and read all of the books—except for the last one. This will disappoint hard core fans, and make those who question whether Christians should have anything to do with Harry Potter question my decision.

ME – You work with people who would describe themselves as witches, druids, Satanists, and others from occult backgrounds. Is there any correlation between the characters in the books and the wizardry portrayed and the people you know in real life.

John – Yes there are lots of correlations. But, I also see lots of correlations between the characters in the Harry Potter books and Christians I know. The correlations have to do with the struggle between making right moral choices and wrong ones. They have to do with having a sense that there is more to this world than what our five senses tell us.

However, as far as the wizardry portrayed and the people I know, I don’t see any literal correlations.

Me – I’ve heard people say that some of the names of things, people and spells in the books do indeed refer to things, people or spells exist in ocultic circles. Personally I’m sceptical about this, but to your knowledge is there any truth in these claims and if so does that make the books more “dangerous”.

John – To the best of my knowledge, there aren’t any actual things, people, or spells that exist in occult circles. The names of the spells, for example, are clearly fictional playful ones.

Me – Some people in Christian circles have made some astounding claims about JK Rowling herself, saying that she personally must be involved in the occult and that these books will draw countless young people into the occult. What do you make of these claims?

John – I think these claims are ridiculous. J. K. Rowling has consistently denied them, and there’s simply no evidence suggesting otherwise. It pains me to see Christians who lie about people based on hearsay. This is irresponsible and needs to be taken more seriously.

As people who follow the One who called himself the “Truth”, we would do well to make sure we’re telling the truth about others. If we speak confidently about things that others know are lies, why would anyone have confidence in us when we share the truth about eternal life?

Me – Over the past couple of decades there seems to have been a resurgence in paganism, neo-paganism, native spiritualities, Wicca, Satanism and witchcraft. What do you think is driving this resurgence? Are the HP books and films part of this, or are they just following in the tradition of kids stories about magic and fantasy?

John – The last few decades have certainly seen a consistent growth of various Pagan spiritualities (witchcraft, Druidry, Shamanism, etc.). Statistics on Satanism have always been much more difficult to nail down. But the growth there has likely been much less than Paganism has seen.

I think there are a number of complex factors that are driving this. Some include a growing dissatisfaction with other spiritual options, including Christianity—or perhaps more accurately, especially Christianity—when it comes to important issues involving women and the environment, a rejection of “dogmatic” faiths, and the like.

This trend, particularly in the growth of Pagan spiritual paths, has been going on for decades, long before anyone ever heard of ‘J. K. Rowling’ or ‘Harry Potter.’ That said, the last decade has seen a rise of books, television shows, and movies that have often portrayed particularly witchcraft in a positive light (of course there are notable examples that have been exceptionally negative). I think that this may have at least a tentative link to the growth in Pagan spirituality. Though it would be inaccurate to say that Harry Potter is driving the resurgence in Paganism, and certainly not Satanism. Instead there are a wide variety of factors involved—most significantly, there are simply a large number of people who find Paganism a meaningful spiritual path.

Me – Some responses to the whole HP things seem to be driven by fear and following close behind these seems to be a loathing almost a hatred of JK Rowling, or of people who are witches, etc. What books or blogs and what general advice would you give to people with regards to how to deal with this fear and how to respond to people that  are involved in witchcraft?

John – I agree with what you say about the fearful responses of many. This is really sad to me.

The advice I would give to people in regard to how to deal with this fear would be this: Stop viewing people through your fears and prejudices, or second hand (mis)understandings of such things. Instead, start to see J. K. Rowling and those involved in the occult through God’s perspective. In practical terms, instead of being afraid of them, enjoy the knowledge that they are also made in God’s image; instead of disliking them, love them as yourself—after all witches are your neighbour too.

In regard to literature, I’d say to be suspicious of Christian literature written on the occult—and especially literature by alleged “former” witches or Satanists. Virtually all of the latter have been proven to be frauds both in terms of their alleged involvement with occult paths, and also with the description they give of occult beliefs and practices. Sad, but true.

For those interested, I have a number of articles and books listed in the ‘Resources’ link on my Missional Apologetics (http://www.missionalapologetics.com/) website dealing with these subjects. For books dealing specifically with Harry Potter I’d recommend those written by Connie Neal.

There are also bloggers, such as Philip Johnson, Matt Stone, and John Morehead who fairly regularly deal with these topics on their blogs from a Christian perspective. There are also excellent Pagan bloggers such as Jason Pitzl-Waters.

Me – While we’re on this subject is there anything else that you’d want to add?

John – One of the main reasons I hear from Christians in regard to why they don’t read Harry Potter books is because they mention magic, spells, witchcraft, magical creatures, and the like. The thing is, C. S. Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia do as well, not to mention many childhood stories such as Snow White. If we reject the former for this reason, we also need to reject the latter. Better to be discerning, especially if it involves children—some of the scenes in Harry Potter are too scary, but then again so are some of the scenes in Chronicles of Narnia in my opinion.

We need to think more logically and consistently on this matter.

Me – Thanks for taking the time to do this – I appreciate the authenticity and years of both research and practical experience that your coming from in this area.

John – Love your blog. Thanks for the opportunity to be involved.

A teenagers Story

Posted an interview I did with a teenage asylum seekers over at Still Small Voices.

Stuart Blythe Interview

Brodie - Stuart can you tell us a little about yourself and your family?

Stuart – I am married to Susanne who has been my friend since she was 12 and I was 15 (childhood sweethearts and all that) and we have two children, Stephen (18) and Kim Michal  (she has two first names!!! Aged 14).

Brodie - Tell us about your journey to faith?

Stuart – In Uddingston, dwarfed by the world famous Tunnocks’s Factory there is a little Nazerene Church . One day many years ago an 11 year old boy, from a non-church attending family, whose dad had recently died, attended a Summer Holiday club there. On the Friday night somehow he was captured and captivated by the compassion and challenge of the inspiring, provocative, compelling character, Jesus. And after all theses years…’Still, I will follow’.

Brodie - You are currently working on a PhD. Can you tell us a little about the subject area your looking at, your aims for this project and what some of your initial thoughts are?

Stuart – My first plan was to look at preaching as a political act in post-liminal political Scotland . That has become somewhat narrowed and I am now looking at ‘Open air preaching as radical street performance (with attention to three Scottish expressions)’. Initial conclusions, people might hate the terminology – but preaching is a performance (shown doing)  the question is whether it is a good performance or a bad one – and who does it, and where it is done, and how preachers read and utilise that context in addition to what is said are all an important part of its effectiveness. Following on from this I think that there is scope for the development of alternative interventionist forms of public ‘out-church’ preaching – called by me ‘guerrilla preaching’ – based upon ‘guerrilla theatre’ a non-violent interventionist type of theatre. (Bored yet!!!!)

Brodie - Amoungst other things you teach a course in preaching at the Scottish Baptist College . Do you do this, (a) because it’s expected of you, (b) the kindsof churches that would employ those you train expect it, or (c) because you believe preaching still has a place in our hyper-modern / postmodern context?

Stuart – The answer is all three. As a College we seek to be responsive to what are the perceived expressed needs of the constituency of Churches we serve in term of the key competencies that they are looking for in those who would be ministers in their Churches. Most Churches, including most Baptist Churches for reasons of theology as well as tradition still consider preaching to be an important if not central part of their worship. In considering who will be their ministers people in Churches still put a lot of weight on whether people ‘can preach’ or not. In addition to this the regular ministry of many ministers will involve them in preaching at least one if not more sermons a week. All of this is just the case.  But putting all of that aside I do think that preaching still has a place in our hyper/modern post-modern context, and I do see people changed by it – people coming to faith through it, people hearing the call of God in it. I also have a theological commitment to it based upon its integrated significance in the Luke 4 Nazareth manifesto.

Brodie - If your answer was (c) to the above then what are some of the ways you think preaching has changed (say in the past 15 years), or is changing if it is to be efficatious in our age?

Stuart –  Here it gets tricky. On the one hand you could argue that in our Scottish experience preaching has actually changed very little in the past 15 years. On the other hand there have been huge developments in the theory and theology of preaching and how it functions and can function effectively as a means of communication in our post-modern context. Narrative, imagination, moves, event, form sensitive, listener orientated, creative, conversational, artistic, Jazz, etc etc are now the words which are associated with contemporary ideas on preaching. Don’t get me wrong at all. Preaching is indeed a Divine event. Its power is in the power of God, Scriptures, the Holy Spirit, the centrality of Christ. But as with the incarnation of Jesus, the Word made flesh, it is a power that God is pleased to have expressed through humanity. As humans we preachers can and should attend to our side – so that as far as it lies with us – we do our best in terms of our communication approaches suited to our context.

Brodie - What for you is the key function of preaching?

Stuart – In artistic language – it is about spraying oral graffiti on the walls of peoples’ hearts to change the old stories that are written there. In traditional language it is about bearing witness to the Gospel. It primary function, whatever the language, for me – is that people might be encountered by the Living God through the preaching event.

Brodie - your blog is called, "the word at the barricades". What are the barricades you had in mind when you chose this name?

Stuart – This related to my studies. I came across an article called ‘Art at the barricades’ an article that highlighted a move to more oral expressions in political protest performance art. The barricades therefore are anything that need to be spoken about from the particular perspective of the Kingdom Good News of Jesus.

Brodie - Your involved in a thing called, Centre for the study of Scottish Spirituality. Can you tell us a little about this, whiether is something that’s in the pipeline or is already functioning, what it does and how you think it could beinfit the church in Scotland and perhaps beyond?

Stuart – It is not so much a place as a ‘space’ for conversation about Christian issues that takes seriously the specifically Scottish dimension. This dimension is important at the very least from the perspective of understanding ourselves and engaging in mission. It will function both informally and formally. Informally through coffee shop conversations about issues such as the ‘ Emerging Church in the Scottish Context’ – date to be arranged with you soon!!! J More formal meetings will be like the one to be held at the College on the morning of Saturday 24^th March when a paper will be presented and discussion will take place about a recent oral history of the early days of the Iona Community. This, however, will be done within a context of some worship and reflection utilising resources from that community.

Brodie - Given we live in a globalized economy do you think there is such a thing as a distinctive Scottish Spirituality?

Stuart – I know that instead of Scotland there are Scotland’s, instead of Scottish culture there are Scottish cultures, instead of Scottish identity there are Scottish identities - but in terms of historical and contemporary shared national experiences I think there is a ‘Scottish’ that makes these cultures and identities distinct – and likewise if not indeed more so, our spirituality.

Brodie - Stuart, I detect in conversations we’ve had and stuff you’ve written on your blog that you’ve an interest in new forms of church and in particular what people are calling the Emerging Church . Can you share what’s driving this interest for you and what you find attractive / hopeful about the Emerging Church ?

Stuart – The interest will sound so pious…but at its heart – that some who presently do not know or are far from Jesus (perhaps put off by their previous experiences of Church – and some of such people are my friends) will find a meaningful community expression where they can learn of him, be close to him, live for him. 

Brodie - Tell us three things we could be praying for you and your family in the work that you are doing.

Stuart – That my children will continue to grow in the creativity and courage they are already displaying, that Susanne will keep being her, that I might actually finish my PhD one day...

Brodie - Stuart thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.

Fernando Gros Interview

Brodie - Fernando can you tell us a little about yourself and your family?

Fernando – My parents moved to Australia when the Allende government came to power and settled on Sydney's southern beaches, an area that has been in the news recently for racially-motivated violence.  I met my wife on a short-term mission to Africa in 1993 and we were married within a year.  Our daughter was born in 2001, in London, within view of Stamford Bridge.

Brodie - Tell us about how you came to be a Christ follower and if you grew up in a Christian family?

Fernando – I grew up in a typically Latin American, nominally Catholic household.  My parents were influenced and inspired by the example of Billy Graham, but faith was not an active part of my childhood.  In my early teens I briefly attended an "ethnic" Spanish-speaking church but that influenced my outlook on racial issues more than my outlook on Christianity.

In my later teens I oscillated between nihilism and spiritual curiosity.  After school I went through a particularly bleak period, with the suicide of a football buddy, some ugly clashes with friends and a sense of disappointment with life.  I started to immerse myself in a lot of reading - Sartre, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche and the Old Testament.  In the book of Job I found a story that resonated with my angst and from there started to explore the Bible more.  Going to church was a big hurdle for me, because I still connected it with colonialism and social segregation, but the bridge was some faithful friends from school.

Brodie - I know from your blog that you love music, film and theology but I have no idea what you actually do for a job. Can you enlighten us?

Fernando –  I hate that question.  My business card says "writer and musician," which of course tells you everything and nothing.

I left the world of finance to train "for the ministry" as we Baptists often say, inspired by a dream of churches with "empty pulpits."  It's not like me to say this, but I do believe that dream had divine inspiration and I've tried to follow and understand that vision ever since.  Initially this led me to serve as a minister and go forward for ordination, though even early on ,most saw me heading into theological education.  My last church role was with a team of three in a smaller suburban church.  I was responsible for an evening service that grew from just over a dozen to more than one hundred and twenty in the space of two years, much of that through evangelism.  It was radical, inclusive, de-centred and in our current moment might be described as missional or emerging, but those terms were foreign to me then.

In 1999 I left Australia to read for a PhD and work as a Chaplain; both at King's College London.  During that time I also consulted with two churches, helping them think through some issues in local mission.  Those years were a positive experience, but several things started putting me off a typical academic career either in a university, or theological college.  To be blunt, I didn't want to perpetuate the existing system, which seemed broken and several of those thinking along new lines, were ... well, not impressive, let’s leave it at that.

I was considering setting up some sort of think-tank, maybe aligned with an urban church, when my wife was offered a job in India (she works for a large company).  We moved and I really underestimated how much that would impact my ability to work and write.  I was in negotiations to write a book on theology and film at the time, but had to let that go.  It's almost comical, looking back on it, but I spent those years learning to be a plumber, electrician and butcher.  Halfway through, I returned to my "first love," music, completing a distance course in arranging with Berklee College of Music in Boston and devoted what little extra time I had to writing for the blog.

Right now, I'm finishing an album of music written and arranged while in India and looking for opportunities to work in film and video music.  Since 2000 I've been developing with my father some products in the field of music technology and will be launching a small company in the autumn.  Of course I continue to write for the blog and hopefully this year that might coalesce into something more solid, either a book or series of articles.

I keep being asked about planting a church, but the truth is I'm at a place where it would be very uncomfortable drawing a conventional stipend from ministry.  I believe we should be striving to create culture as a way of doing mission and that's my goal.  So, I guess you could call me a "tent-maker."

Brodie - You were born in Chile, grew up in Australia and have lived in London, Delhi and Hong Kong. Do you feel Chilean, Australian or a mix of different cultures?

Fernando –  Definitely a mix.  There is a very good book called Third Culture Kids that talks about children who grow up in a culture other than their host culture.  My childhood was spent in a very Anglo-Celtic part of Sydney as one of the few "ethnic" kids in my school.  At home we spoke Spanish, ate Latin American food and held to those customs.  I didn't have a roast dinner until I was in my twenties.

It wasn't until I moved to London that I ever felt consciously Australian.  Suddenly my accent made me an outsider and I found myself cheering for Australia in the Rugby and Cricket World Cups as well as a memorable night at Upton Park when the SoccerRoos downed England 3-1.

These days, most people who meet us assume we are British.  My daughter knows she was born in London, but feels like India is home.  She's five, has visited eleven countries and complains that she isn't as well travelled as some of her friends.  She really doesn't understand why she has an Australian passport and on one level, neither do I.

Brodie - How has being a global citizen impacted on your own faith journey?

Fernando –  It has made me quite aware of the ways we blend our faith with our home culture.  It's made me aware both how selective we can be in who we choose to love and how expansive God's love is in the diversity of people He is willing to embrace.

Moreover, it's made me realise how little national boundaries matter from a divine perspective.  In rural New South Wales, church folk like to say that Australia's coastal mountain range must be very high, since many pastors can't hear God's call over it.  Sometimes it feels like that isn't the only mountain blocking out God's voice.

Brodie - what do you think are some of the key opportunities and challenges that the process of Globalization present to the church, especially for mission?

Fernando –  Globalisation is a gift to the church. The early church grew through the Pax Romana, which was in many ways a precursor to our current era.  The early missionary movement both piggy-backed upon and worked alongside the early trade movements that led to Globalisation.  Today globalisation provides opportunites through new technologies of communication and a high level of trust in those technologies.

I believe the emerging church phenomena is an example of such an opportunity.  Encouragement, support and edification can come to those often working in small, fragile mission contexts in  remarkable ways that would not have been possible, even a generation ago.  We can learn directly from those working in innovative and non-traditional initiatives around the world and not just depend on official and endorsed big church infrastructure to pass on methods.  Even when I started theological college, there was a lot of bogus information about "the way they do it in the US" and so on.  But now we can interact directly with thinkers around the world and see the diversity of approaches to faith and mission.

But Globalised technology also means bad news travels fast.  The church has a poor track record when it comes to dealing with indiscretions, abuses and scandals, often opting to cover-up instead of atone.  But now it is harder than ever for the church to hide its dirty laundry, wherever it happens in the world.

Globalisation means a greater movement of people in the world, which can fuel stagnant churches, provide fresh ideas and leadership.  Some talk about the church as exiles, but I think there is a lot to learn from the expatriate church experience as well.

Brodie - What aspects of Globalization do you think we [the church] need to critique?

Fernando –  The church must always be an advocate for the poor.  I firmly believe globalisation is the best option out there for the poor of the world, and I saw its potential first hand in India.    There is, within less than a generation a remarkable change in people's prospects and situation.  Of course, the track record is mixed, and human nature being what it is, we must always be vigilant.  So I think the church needs to critically engage and condemn not only those aspects of globalisation that exploit the poor, but also those critics of globalisation who systematically fail to propose viable alternatives that will give real improvements for the poor.

Brodie - Zygmunt Bauman in "Globalization" suggests that one of the consequences of globalization will be a new kind of rich / poor divide, as there will be those who have the skills to flourish in this new world and a "class" who will be left behind and therefore impoverished. Firstly what do you make of Bauman’s analysis and do you think that Globalization brings specific challenges to issues of justice.

Fernando –  Bauman is right and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the emerging divide is really about creativity and mobility, rather than wealth.  In some ways this maps out in the cosmopolitian/local divide we find in major international cities.

But, I think there is a potential for misunderstanding here.  Just because someone owns an Apple computer, runs a blog, downloads music and dresses in a cool way doesn't make them part of the creative class.  There's a big difference between consuming technological culture and creating culture.  So you want to be creative, great!  Are you willing to move to India, because that's where the jobs will be.  In a few years a massive film related industry has sprung up in New Zealand, of all places, thanks to Peter Jackson's films.  India already has a massive base with Bollywood and they are now investing a staggering amount in new media technology.

It's easy to think outsourcing of call centres is the final consequence of globalisation, but it is really only the beginning.  Journalism is being outsourced, as are many legal, human resource, tax and even immigration processes.  Having creative skills doesn't insure you from being outsourced, it just gives you a little more freedom to move and choose your locations.

Whilst I believe globalisation invites many more of the world's poor to the banquet, not everyone has an invitation because the access to technology is not there.  Moreover, there are still huge problems with corruption, conflict and historical barriers that have yet to be overcome.  The potential for justice is far from realised.

Brodie - Tell us three things we could be praying for you and your family in the work that you are doing.

Fernando –  Moving around the world makes it hard to sustain friendships, hard to integrate with churches and hard to have a sense of continuity to one's work.  Those three are our main prayer-points.

Brodie - Fernando thanks for taking the time to answer these questions and for sharing in the way you do over at Fernando’s Desk.

Fernando –  Thanks for inviting me.  The blogging business really is a wonderful thing.

John Smulo Interview

I've been reading the blog of John Smulo for a wee while now. If you've not checked it out yet then you should. One of the things John reguarly has on this blog which I've enjoyed and learned from are interviews with all sorts of interesting people.

So inspired by this I'm planning to do some interviews and thought that it would be appropriate if John kicked things off.

Brodie - John can you tell us a little about yourself and your family?

John – I’ve been married to Alex for twelve years. She’s from Australia, and we met while involved with Youth With A Mission (Honolulu). We have four boys between 7-11—there’s twins in the middle. We’ve lived in both Sydney, where Alex is from; and California, where I’m from. It’s been a very positive experience getting to live in two quite different cultures.

Brodie - Tell us about how you came to be a Christ follower and if you grew up in a Christian family?

John – I grew up in a Jewish family, though my parents were fairly nominal. I have some family members that are involved in their synagogue, but growing up they didn’t share much with me about Judaism. Once I become a Jesus-follower most family members struggled with my decision and began sharing a lot more with me. Ironically it was only after I became a Christian that I had an interest in learning more about my Jewish background—which as it happens has a lot to do with Christianity.

My story of becoming a Christ-follower will probably sound a bit odd. Basically I grew up having no interest in spiritual things at all. Then one day I was driving down the highway in northern California—I can remember it like it was yesterday, though it was 13 years ago—and I had an overwhelming feeling that I was supposed to go to a particular church that my then girlfriends parents went to. I went, and for the first time had an overwhelming sense that there was something spiritual going on that I needed to explore more. Several months later I gave my life to the Person who always owned it.

Brodie - How would you describe your current job?

John – I can’t remember the last time I only had one job or thing I was involved in. My main "jobs" have been pastor and faculty member at a Bible College for a number of years. Currently I’m teaching at Capital Bible College and talking to a few churches who are looking for a pastor. I’m normally working on some type of writing project in the midst of it all.

Brodie - You’ve had some stuff published on mission to those involved in "New Religious Movements" as part of the Lausanne group who thinks and talks about this stuff. Can you tell us what is meant by NRM and how you came to be involved in this kind of thing?

John – ‘New Religious Movements’ are generally thought to be newer, or alternative, forms of spirituality other than the traditional religions that people in a given culture have been a part of. As the name implies, they are also newer kids on the block historically. Since religions such as Christianity, Judaism, etc. have been around for thousands of years, groups such as Latter-day Saints and Jehovah’s Witnesses tend to get lumped in the "new religion" category even though they’ve been around for quite awhile. New Religious Movements are often marginalized by the wider culture, and especially those who are part of the traditional religions. Christians would do well to remember that in the early centuries of the church we were the new religious movement, and as a result were marginalized and often persecuted.

I had an interest in evangelism and apologetic approaches to other religions virtually from the time I became a Jesus-follower. Because my family was Jewish and they had so many questions I didn’t know how to answer, I discovered apologetics. And because I felt this compulsion to share the Good News that had transformed my life, I discovered evangelism.

When I was in my second year at Morling College I took a class called Alternative Religious Movements. One of the assignments was to research and develop a response to an alternative religious movement. The class covered the new religious movements that Christians tend to focus on, such as Mormonism, and New Spirituality (aka New Age). But at the time I kept noticing how many television shows, movies, and books were in the popular media covering Wicca. So I asked if I could do my essay on Wicca, which wasn’t covered in the class.

I came to be known as the guy in Sydney who knew about witchcraft, and started having a number of churches invite me to teach on the topic. One of the questions I was regularly asked is if Wicca and Satanism were the same thing. I knew they weren’t, but I didn’t know all of the details. So when I did an honour’s thesis I decided to do it on an Incarnational apologetic to Satanism.

Brodie - How would you describe your mission to those involved in Satanism or neo-paganism?

John – For me this involves two main areas. The first is primary source research. So this involves reading material written by adherents of new religious movements, interacting with them online, interviewing people in person, and writing.

The second main area that this involves is developing friendships with Satanists and Neo-Pagans. This has created a lot of problems for some Christians over the years, with them questioning why I’d have any associations with such [insert any number of derogatory terms here] people. But I’ve tried to let that be their problem and not mine whenever possible. Sadly, I haven’t always been successful in this.

I’ve been fortunate that my research has given me lots of opportunities to meet lots of people from these backgrounds. I’m certainly not ashamed to say that many of them have become friends.

Brodie - I’ve come across Christians that tend to lump Satanists, new agers, pagans, masons, wicca etc all together. I know from stuff your written that this is erroneous, could you explain why we should not lump all these different groups together and what harm we could do if we do?

John – I’m glad you raised this. The main reason why we shouldn’t lump all of these groups together is simple, they’re all different. There was a small scandal here in America when Rosie O’Donnell essentially compared Christians with Muslim terrorists. Christians don’t like it when others falsely compare them to others. Pagans and others are no different.

Lumping all of them together causes harm for a number of reasons. For starters, if we demonstrate to others that we don’t understand what they believe—even while passionately claiming we do—then why should they take us seriously when we talk about matters of life and eternity? What’s more, as people who claim to follow the One who is called himself the "Truth", we represent him poorly if we are involved in lying.

Brodie - I’ve met a lot of Christians who are "afraid" of people who would say they were a Witch, or a Druid or a Satanist, and would think that they are demon possessed. What’s your views on those involved in NRM and the demonic?

John – I believe that the demonic exists, and that occasionally this involves possession. So it’s certainly possible that one of the above could be possessed. But so could an atheist, Mormon, or an adherent of any other group. If anything we are satanically deceived if we place an unbalanced emphasis on the demonic and particular groups.

Brodie - You’ve started a web site called "Missional Apologetics". Can you explain why you felt the need to put "Missional" before apologetics, and how the approach you’d argue for here might differ from say the Josh McDowell kind of stuff many of us have grown up with?

John – Apologetics was never meant to be an end in itself. Apologetics is a tool for evangelism and mission. For far too long apologetics has merely been about rational arguments in regard to who’s right (us) and who’s wrong (everyone else). This type of approach tends to make (them) defensive and (us) smugly self-confident. Enough is enough of this approach.

I’ve added "missional" before apologetics to signify the heart of what apologetics is about—a tool for mission. I’ve also used this term to signify that this newer paradigm of apologetics relies heavily on insights from the field of missiology, such as cross-cultural communication, contextualization, and Incarnational ministry. The Missional Apologetic Manifesto explains more of what this involves.

Brodie - In your experience what are some of the barriers for those who've been involved in NRM’s and become Jesus followers then integrating into a Church?

John – There’s different difficulties for people coming from different groups. For example, if a person was a Pagan and became a Jesus-follower, they’d probably either be asked to speak to everyone about their experiences and be treated like a circus sideshow, or they’d be treated with suspicion. Also, church as normally expressed will likely be far less participatory than they’re used to, in many churches they’ll find that if they’re female they’re no longer able to equally participate in every area of church life, and they’ll quite possibly find Christians doing far less when it comes to ethical issues such as caring for the environment. But if a person was a Satanist who converting to Christianity and tried to integrate into a church, they’d have some different struggles.

Brodie - Why do you think we’ve seen in the west an explosion of interest in "alternative spirituality's" and at the same time a decline in those who would regularly attend church and call themselves Christians?

John – Sociologists and others have been exploring this question, and I don’t know if there’s a definitive answer. But I suspect a lot of it has to do with the everyday perceptions of people particularly in the West who think that Christianity doesn’t provide substance to the heartfelt spiritual longings they have. But they often have a suspicion that new religious movements do. Another significant factor is that the West has become increasingly pluralistic and diverse over time, and there are a lot more spiritual options for Western consumers to buy into.

Brodie - It can be hard to keep on keeping on in mission. What sustains you, what keeps you going?

John – When it comes to interacting with people in new religious movements, I really enjoy it. I have received much from the relationships that have been built both with adherents of NRM’s, as well as friends who are working in the same field.

I also have a strong sense that we’re doing a terrible job responding appropriately to NRM’s—so much written by Christians on the topic is sensational and inaccurate, and no doubt causes more harm than good. In addition, there’s a million books written on Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons by Christians. I’m passionate about being part of a relatively small group of Christians globally working in this area, and hope that many more join us! These are the main factors that sustain me in mission.

Brodie - Tell us three things we could be praying for you and your family in the work that you are doing.

John – First, that God would bless the relationships we make with adherents of NRM’s. Second, that God would help us to accurately represent those that we’re writing about. And third, that God would help us to develop missional apologetic approaches to NRM’s that will be used by others in a manner that works with what God is already doing in people’s lives, rather than against it.

Brodie - John thanks for taking the time to answer these questions and for well being who you are and doing what you do.

John – Brodie, I appreciate what you do here, and have enjoyed the opportunity to talk with you.